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by Stephen (steveu) Underwood
ROCKFORD MI 2/6/02 -- A recently resigned Rockford track coach
has said this of embattled Rams distance guru Brad Prins: "Brad
will never change."
Well, maybe … maybe not. During a long-simmering controversy
that erupted into flames during a series of Grand Rapids Press stories
that began a week ago (Jan. 30), Prins has defended his methods
and pretty much indicated he would try to ride out the storm. But
Tuesday night (Feb. 5), the 61-year-old coach revealed he is strongly
considering retiring from both of his positions at the helm of the
girls cross country and distance track (both genders) programs.
After working through a few schedule conflicts on both sides, DyeStat.com
first spoke with Prins this past Sunday, after there had already
been significant response and outcry from the print media stories
of previous days. But the coach, while giving DyeStat.com some background
and responding to portions of the allegations, advised us to contact
him again Tuesday (yesterday) after some Monday meetings were supposed
to take place.
Thus, Tuesday night Prins surprised us with the strong possibility
that he will resign at next Monday's district school board meeting,
which will follow this weekend's trip for Prins and nine of his
athletes to the adidas Midwest Indoor Track Classic in Lincoln,
Nebraska.
Tuesday's interview begins this piece, with Prins unexpectedly
revealing his plans and elaborating somewhat on them. But don't
pass up Sunday's interview, which follows, and includes some of
Prins' strongest responses to the allegations. We taped the interviews
and have tried to give as much of a word-for-word breakdown of how
they went. It's long, but fascinating reading. You could say that
it's "Brad Prins: Uncut" or "Raw" or "Live!"
Tuesday Interview
Prins: There was a school board meeting Monday morning, a closed
meeting, and then last night was a meeting of some parents and administrators.
But nothing's changed as far as my situation from those meetings.
Well, let's just say if anything's changed, I haven't heard about
it from anybody yet. So it's still up in the air.
Now I can tell you that there's an official school board meeting
next Monday night and I'm going to make my decision by then.
Q: Make your decision?
PRINS: Yep, about what I'm going to do.
Q: I thought you were definitely going to be staying.
PRINS: No, no, no. Uh-uh. It depends upon a couple of things.
Q: You told me the other day there was no way you were going
to resign until at least next year.
PRINS: Well, that's for cross, perhaps, but I was never going to
stay on for track anyway. I'm just staying on right now because
of what's happened. I don't want to look like I'm running out (laughs).
This is all kind of ... well ... I don't ... (trails off)
Q: What's happened to change your perspective on that?
A. Well, two things have happened. One is that the uproar with
the Grand Rapids Press just keeps going on and on and on. And the
kids are extremely supportive and so are the parents, but I can
tell it's starting to affect their performance. Not in big ways,
but they're starting to get upset about it. And the other thing
is ..
Q: I thought things were settling down a little bit now.
PRINS: No, no. If you knew what was going on around here ... Like
I said, the real problem doesn't have anything to do with supplements
and so forth. There's something, a much bigger thing. I can't even
get my finger on it. I know Shliber, the superintendent, doesn't
really know what's going on. It (laughs) ... I'd be speculating
if I told you; I wouldn't want it to come out. I've got some ideas,
but it's so bizarre that I ...
Q: You don't have any idea?
PRINS: To give you ideas I'd have to name names and with something
like this, I don't want to name names unless I'm sure. Because that's
what people are doing all the time now or they're saying, "quote
by unidentified source." Well, what does that mean?
Q: Are people saying that you've done something else, something
different?
PRINS: No, no. The accusations that they're going with is still
the supplement thing. And that ... you know I'm not going to change
on that (meaning his philosophy, not that he's giving them out).
I believe in supplements and everything I've ever given the kids
is legal. The only thing is there's a question about if school policy
was followed every time. And school policy means that do I know
every time the kids took something that the parents knew?
Q: But school policy has been followed since September 10, right?
PRINS: Well, yeah! But that doesn't make any difference, because
these guys ... Like the Grand Rapids Press -- Bob Becker (veteran
columnist/editor) has gotten into it now. He says that if I've ever
gave any kid one pill in 10 years I should be fired immediately.
See, they're playing this like these are steroids or amphetamines
or something like that. They're not differentiating between legal
and illegal drugs. They're calling anything ... in other words,
for them whether it's a steroid or Vitamin C, it's the same thing.
Q: Now you were saying a couple of minutes ago, before I interrupted
you, that part of the reason you were thinking of retiring was because
of the uproar that might have affected the kids' performance, and
that they were upset. And then you said there was another thing.
What was that?
PRINS: The other thing is that I have a real good opportunity to
make some money, although money isn't my reason, by dealing in a
private sector program -- where I would be under no public responsibility,
like to the MHSAA. I would simply be working with kids, and the
only thing I'd have to worry about would be the relationship between
myself and kids and their parents. Or really, I wouldn't have to
worry about the parents in most cases because the kids would be
older.
Q: Is this something that you think your high school kids would
participate in?
PRINS: Yes. This would be during the summer and during the indoor
season. This would move me completely out of the MHSAA realm, so
I'd no longer have to worry about numbers ... you know, working
with kids or how many people in the North Kent Running Club were
there or weren't there, because we always have to be careful now
to be in compliance with the MHSAA. I could take kids to any national
meets I wanted to, indoors or outdoors, because the national outdoor
meet is at the end of the season; wouldn't have to worry about numbers.
During the summer, I can do stuff with them and so on and so forth.
I've got the backing of all the parents of my star runners from
right now, and some of them from previous years. And it'd be kind
of like Hanson does with Hanson's Running Shop; it'd be kind of
like a running team. It would be focused on kids who wanted to train
as a group during the summer.
Q: Is there some group or organization potentially wanting to
back this idea?
PRINS: Yes, it's the North Kent Running Club. There are some members
there with some resources, let's put it that way (laughs). I mean,
I don't coach for the money anyway; you know if you coach high school,
you don't coach for the money and I wouldn't do it for that. They've
just talked about it to give me an incentive to keep it going, because
they want to me to at least work with these kids until they get
out of high school.
Q: So what would you say are the chances you'd continue to coach
the rest of this track season, indoor and outdoor?
PRINS: Well (laughs) ... I don't like outdoor track anyway ...
because the meets around here are so dull, for us anyway. They last
all night and so forth, so it'd be easy for me to walk away from
the outdoor season. Cross-country's more difficult for me to walk
away from.
Q: So there's better than a 50-50 chance you'll step down from
track this season?
PRINS: Yes, absolutely. Although I will continue to work with the
kids up until ... I think it's March 15 or something. Then I can
take the kids to some national meets as soon as the regular season
is over.
See, this way I'm not accountable to anybody but the parents. And
if the kid's 18, I'm not even accountable to the parents. And that's
fine with me; I don't mind being accountable to the parents. And
as far as the supplements ... none of the supplements are illegal,
so they can drug test us any time they want, we don't care. The
only thing that's been ... well, not illegal, but let's say against
school policy, would be if I ever gave like, whatever to a kid without
the parent's permission. The drug itself was never illegal.
Q: And what are the chances that you'll be coaching cross-country
next fall, if it's up to you?
PRINS: If it's completely up to me? (laughs) I'd quit in a minute.
The way it stands right now, no.
Q: So what would it take for you to coach Rockford next fall?
PRINS: (Laughs) If I didn't have this other deal set up.
Q: So you're saying it's almost a certainty that you won't be
coaching cross-country, either?
PRINS: With this deal the way the parents have presented it to
me -- and with the parents who are talking to me and the kids we're
talking about -- it's a better deal for me for two reasons: When
I started this I was 50 years old; I was going to do it for 10 years
-- and it's been 11 or 12 now. Actually I wanted to step down a
year ago, when Dathan graduated, because I got so many kids in college
now, I wanted to go watch them.
But I got attached to this group of kids, a bunch of sophomores
... and I don't mean just because they are talented runners, but
just great kids. This seems to happen all the time; you're just
about ready to step aside when a bunch of new, great kids come along.
I don't mean just necessarily by their talent, but their attitude,
they're fun to be with, their parents are neat people and so forth.
So you hang around.
But with the situation that's up now, there's so much going on.
Just bizarre stuff. The Grand Rapid Press is just not letting go
of this and it's making life miserable for the kids. And therefore,
if I step down from Rockford (and the MHSAA), I have total freedom,
I'm responsible to nobody (but the kids and parents).
Q: So the school board meeting next Monday (and after their
trip to the adidas Midwest Classic in Nebraska) will be when you
make your decision?
PRINS: I will tell you right now. I have told Mike Shliber that
I will for sure make my decision by next Monday. I'm not going to
leave the system up in the air. But I would say that I hope Mark
Nessner - a good person who works the same training system I do
and already coaches the boys' CC team and helps with the distance
track kids - would get a chance to take over. But if I retire, they
have to post the job opening.
Q: So you feel the kids would have continuity and get the best
of both worlds in that situation?
PRINS: Yes, that's what I'm hoping for.
Q: If you wanted to, what do you think are the chances that
you'd be allowed to continue coaching at Rockford? It sounds like
the administration is willing (so far) to let you do so.
PRINS: The problem is you got the Grand Rapids Press on one side,
with Bob Becker ... and this goes back to (former athletic director)
David Price ... This is so bizarre, I'm 61 years old now and I love
to coach the kids, but I hate to go through this other crap. I said,
I would do it, but I can see nothing but benefits the other way,
and with our indoor and summer programs and kids from other schools
possibly joining... I don't want the pressure of the MHSAA looking
down at us.
If I do that and work with kids during the summer, I don't have
to worry about ... Right now I have to be concerned ... and there's
reason for the rules and you always have to have parents there in
the morning to run with the kids and there are parents there, but
if I'm not associated directly with the MHSAA or with Rockford,
then I don't have to worry about that.
Q: So you feel like all of the coaches, kids and parents who
work with you agree that this is the best possible solution?
PRINS: That's what I'm thinking and that's my big concern, and
that there will be someone who will keep the program at a high level.
We have all of our training systems written out and we all use the
same thing.
We're going out to Nebraska (adidas Midwest Indoor Track Classic
at the University of Nebraska February 9).. I'll tell you more
of my concepts on supplementation, too, and you're free to print
it. I'm not ashamed of it, I'm proud of it and I'm going to still
keep using it. The only thing I did wrong was that I should have
gotten written permission from the parents all the time. But as
far as the pills themselves, there's nothing illegal by federation
rules. They're not steroids or anything like that. They're Vitamin
C, maybe Advil, Echinacea sometimes. I always tell the kids to use
a multi-vitamin and I can show you why. Most of the stuff I've gotten
on supplementation I've gotten from Prevention Magazine and Runner's
World. That's the big issue, although I really think it's only a
side issue. But it's a big issue with the Press.
Sunday Interview:
Q: What is your perspective on things right now?
PRINS: Nothing I've done is illegal ... and this is what Jack Roberts
pointed out to me, who is the head of the MHSAA ... What's illegal
are substances used solely for the purpose of enhancing performance
for that race. I never have done that. The school rule policy, which
is statewide and so forth, says that you cannot give kids any type
of supplement or medication, whether it is vitamins or Advil or
whatever, unless they have permission of the parents. That's the
only key thing. I mean, you can give kids Excedrin or anything right
in the high school building, as long as the parents give permission.
Q: That's a state rule?
PRINS: No, it's not a state rule. The MHSAA doesn't have any jurisdiction
or anything. It's called board policy, but it's determined by state
law and it's uniform to all schools. In other words, generally,
the kids cannot take anything from Vitamin C to Excedrin to Advil
to aspirin -- without permission from their parents.
Q: But now, since Sept. 10, I thought the situation, at least
with you guys, has been that you don't want to be giving out anything
to kids under any circumstances.
PRINS: Right. And the reason for that is simply a communications
deal. If I stand there and kids are taking this, or I give them
something, how do people standing around watching know if I have
permission from their parents or not? So it becomes a logistical
nightmare.
And they don't know, therefore ... You know, people who brought
up this whole drug thing -- supplement thing, whatever you want
to call it -- have never been part of the girls cross country team.
No parents from the girls cross-country team have ever brought this
up. And nobody from any other school has ever brought it up. It's
been brought up from a few parents of the community who have nothing
to do with the girls cross-country, except a little bit of jealousy.
That's another thing, though.
But then in the September meeting, it wasn't that school policy
changed, but how can we do this so we don't get this 'they're taking
this, she's taking that,' because you see, if I give the kids a
Vitamin C, there is no knowledge whether I had permission from the
parent or not. But if the parent gives the kid Vitamin C, it's unquestioned.
Now there's still one loophole there, of course, and that's -- and
I talked to Dr. Shliber about this -- is that we have no control
over at school; he knows it goes on. What's to keep a kid from going
out and getting it on their own? Excedrin and Vitamin C and just
taking it, without my knowledge or the parent's knowledge? And there's
nothing really you can do about that.
And he knows that goes on in school. There's kids that take aspirin
in school all the time with a drink from the drinking fountain,
without taking it to the nurse and getting the parent's permission.
But formal school policy, on record for liability, is that parental
permission is necessary.
Q: Some of the stuff I wanted to ask you is background stuff
... I read the story in the Rockford Squire about your perspective.
It sounds like the perspective you come from has to do with supplementing
the nutrition we don't get from our diets.
PRINS: Absolutely. The key thing is that is my belief. And that's
what I said, line for line. And I could show you these handouts
I sent to parents. A lot of this stuff I got out of magazines, Runner's
World and so forth, but I am a strong believer in supplementation;
I'm not going to take that back.
However I'm also a strong believer in this -- and I've told parents
this -- who makes the ultimate decision on whether a kid takes Vitamin
C or doesn't take Vitamin C? That kid's parents, not anybody else's
parents, but that kid's parents.
So, for instance, if I recommend a kid takes Vitamin C on a regular
basis, and that parent says 'no, I don't want him to take Vitamin
C, just drink an extra glass of orange juice,' then guess what?
That's what that kid ought to do.
Q: Before this thing ever got started, before the January 2000
first warning, what did you give the kids back then and why?
PRINS: I have never been a believer, but obviously they're not
illegal -- although I guess there's a substance now ... what is
it? Is it Sudafed or Actifed or something? Well anyway, when school
rolls around, especially our cross country season, all the sudden
you have 2000 kids going to school in the same building, so there's
a ton of colds.
So kids come up to me all the time, especially if it's the day before
a hard workout, and or if we're going to have a meet on Saturday
or a dual meet on Wednesday, saying, "is it OK to take cold
medicine."
I say it's OK, as long as you don't take the stuff that makes you
drowsy. So I'm sure ... and I know some of them take a ton of the
cold medicine, now that doesn't come from me, that comes from their
parents or from themselves. My personal way to handle colds is that
I've always recommended taking a little more Vitamin C and with
an Excedrin, because a little bit of caffeine helps work the C into
your system. That's right out of Runner's World, that's nothing
that I dreamt up on my own.
Q: What about kids who weren't sick or concerned about colds?
PRINS: You mean as far as Sudafed or Excedrin or stuff like that?
Sudafed, I don't know about what that would do for anybody, but
I do recommend Excedrin -- and I have talked to several doctors
about this -- for kids who have mild exercise-induced asthma, because
sometimes that can be alleviated through Vitamin C and some Excedrin.
In fact, a Harvard University study brought that out; they can do
that rather than getting into any big time asthma medication.
What's been my success rate with that? Some kids it's helped and
some kids it hasn't. The kids, the normal breathing kids, like Dathan;
Dathan never took anything. Some of the kids don't take anything,
but almost all of the kids take Vitamin C.
As far as what I recommend, and I have for years -- in fact my daughter
got me into this when she went to Harvard, and she was on the crew
team there, she said virtually everybody on the crew team took all
kinds of vitamins. But I generally recommend to my kids, and I have
for years, to take a multivitamin, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Echinacea
for those who tend to get a lot of colds, because that can help
your immune system.
And if it's a sprained ankle or something, I've recommended icing
and Advil. And then if it's menstrual cramps, which you obviously
have for girls, or if it's for someone who's asthmatic, then Excedrin.
Q: So would it be accurate to say that, except for medically
necessary reasons, you haven't asked or encouraged kids to take
anything like Sudafed, Actifed or Advil?
PRINS: I don't know where that came up. If you notice, the kids
who mentioned that, wouldn't be this year or the year before that.
That must have been during Jason Hartman's era or something, because
I do remember, but I don't recommend kids taking that kind of stuff.
But I do know that there's kids taking cold medicine and maybe some
of them felt it would help their breathing if they didn't have a
cold. I don't know particularly what it has in it. But my idea ...
that question came up to me with ... "is cold medicine all
right to take before a race?" And the only thing I ever said
to the kids is, "yeah, as far as I know, but just be sure to
take the non-drowsy type."
Q: It seems like where some of this conversation has turned,
is around Sudafed being a banned substance at other levels.
PRINS: Wasn't' that banned just a year or two ago? Also, I think
caffeine's bad if you have 500mg, I think that's what the national
federation says. But the Sudafed, if it is banned, then obviously
cold medicines are banned from runners, too.
Q: Well, at a professional or Olympic level, a lot of them are.
PRINS: I can see that caffeine would be banned, I mean if you want
to take 500mg, that would get you flying. But Actifed or Sudafed
... that I don't know what the exact ingredient is, but I'm sure
some of my kids have taken it, because they hadn't outlawed it,
but it's not something I'd recommend.
Q: So the Sudafed has not been something you've recommended?
PRINS: No. Now that's not to say the kids haven't taken it and
it's not something I said you couldn't take. In fact, maybe indirectly
I gave my tacit approval when I said well, if you have a cold, just
don't take the non-drowsy type. In that sense maybe I gave permission
to take it.
Q: What about the comments that were printed from Linsey Blaisdell
and Brian Smith?
PRINS: What Linsey and Brian said is irrelevant. They just outright
lied. I have no respect for them. They have a gripe with the program
that has nothing to do with drugs, I'll tell you that. They were
a little disappointed because they acted like fools at the national
meet last year and I guarantee you that anything they said is totally
irrelevant.
Q: So when Linsey said where you said "I'm the coach and
you're taking them" ...
PRINS: Wrong. And all the kids know that.
Q: And when Brian said that you gave him Sudafed.
PRINS: Brian said something about the state meet? Blatant lie.
I don't even see the kids at the ...
Q: The state meet quote was about Excedrin and he didn't specifically
say that you gave it to him in that instance.
PRINS: I didn't give it to him. ... That's what he had (regarding
whether or not Smith had a "panic attack") and that's
what his dad said after the race. All this stuff comes up after
what happened down in North Carolina and after Dathan decided he
was going to go to Colorado instead of Michigan.
Q: So you're saying you may have given these things to kids
if they asked for them, but you never told kids to take these things.
PRINS: I would never do that; what's more is that I would never
even give it to them unless I felt I had their parent's permission.
Now that's what I talked to Mike Shliber about. Words aren't enough,
he said. If I had to go back and do it again, I'd get their permission
in writing; that's what I'd do.
But better than that, because if I had their permission in writing,
but somebody sees them take a pill; does that person know I have
it in writing? No, so what happens then? Then they go back and call
the athletic director or something.
So the best thing to do is what we did this year. And I guarantee
you ask any parent on the team this year, none of them will say
their kids took anything unless they got it on their own or directly
from their parents. That's what we decided on.
And I'll go on record. We've run in national meets, and state meets
and do you know how many teams or states or national associations
have ever complained about us? None. Nobody has made those accusations,
ever. And I'll go a step up. I'll give any association -- local,
state or national-- the right to drug test any of my girls any time
they want. And I'll pay for it. You can put that in there.
Q: I noticed in the first two stories, one had the comment that
as recently as two weeks ago you gave kids stuff, then that you
said that was a blatant lie.
PRINS: I don't' have a clue where that came from (the first statement),
unless there was just confusion. I'm willing to give Beardsley the
benefit of the doubt on that. Maybe he confused that with another
answer. I can guarantee that I haven't given kids anything since
Sept. 10.
Do I still recommend Vitamin C? Absolutely. But I also tell kids
never take anything unless you check with your parents. Do I actually
give it to them? No. I also recommended this: With some boys that
were having leg cramps, you can get this magnesium/potassium/calcium
combination with Vitamin D. I said, "Try that; I've read several
studies on that. It seems to help." Those kids took it and
said they haven't had a leg cramp since; it took about a week. So
again, it's just something I recommend.
Rockford Michigan Controversy
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